God is needed as a foundation for logic.
And yet God, as many Christians define him, is omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal--qualities that break logic in several different ways. Examples follow.
- An omnipotent God can’t both make a stone so heavy that he can’t lift and then lift said stone.
- An omniscient God can’t know what is it like to learn considering he has always known all, yet he must know what it is like to learn in order to know all.
- An omnipotent God can, by definition, commit suicide; yet an eternal God, by definition, cannot die.
God is needed as a foundation for morality.
And yet God, as many Christians define him, violates his alleged good nature regularly in both their holy book and day-to-day life. The lives taken by Yahweh/Jehovah in the Torah/Bible include almost everyone on earth at one point. He is a vengeful, jealous being who allows for cruel and unusual punishment. Outside of myth, Christians must accept that God either causes or allows asymmetrical suffering for every form of life.
God is needed as a foundation for beauty.
And yet ugly things exist. If God is responsible for desirable aesthetics, he is also responsible for the undesirable. Reality isn’t all sunsets and kittens, we also have excrement and maggots.
And yet God, as many Christians define him, violates his alleged good nature regularly in both their holy book and day-to-day life. The lives taken by Yahweh/Jehovah in the Torah/Bible include almost everyone on earth at one point. He is a vengeful, jealous being who allows for cruel and unusual punishment. Outside of myth, Christians must accept that God either causes or allows asymmetrical suffering for every form of life.
God is needed as a foundation for beauty.
And yet ugly things exist. If God is responsible for desirable aesthetics, he is also responsible for the undesirable. Reality isn’t all sunsets and kittens, we also have excrement and maggots.
I typically don't know how to respond to that whole "god is required for logic" thing, it just seems to nonsensical. I like the idea of asking "how can a god who breaks logic set logic in place?"
ReplyDeleteThe most serious problem with this style of argument is that apologists do not provide the theistic explanation that it supposed to ground logic, mathematics, morality, or what have you. So, the best response to this argument is, "Well, then tell me how God does it. Tell me how he does this thing that is supposedly so difficult that it takes an omnipotent being to do it."
ReplyDeleteSo, how does God make it the case that 2+2=4? Does he just say, "Let it be that when you add two things to two things you get four things"? But then could he have said,"Let it be that when you add two things to two things you get 5 million things"?
The nonsensical nature of this argument really comes to the surface when you start asking for the explanation. It becomes obvious that making 2+2=4 is not something that can be done.
If apologists are going to insist on this argument, the best response is to insist that they provide the theistic explanation. Then show that the explanations don't explain and are actually ridiculous.
The only answer I get for how God does anything is basically magic. It's a very unintellectual and uncurious attitude.
Delete"God is needed as a foundation for logic."
ReplyDelete3 responses: 1) How do you know that?, 2) What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and more on the order of what Jason T said - 3) show me WHAT God is and WHY It is needed as a foundation for logic? In short, anyone can CLAIM anything - back it up!
We of course know that most such dialogue has little impact on those committed to apologetics. Critiques are only presented for the sake of those able and desiring to impartially investigate the validity of theist claims.
Apologetic arguments are barely arguments. They are claims and assumptions buried in circular reasoning.
Deleteexrelayman, do you really believe that what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence?
DeleteI don't understand how god can be a foundation for beauty, when everyone even theist know beauty is subjective? But if we say this is not true and then god is the foundation for beauty, we lose free will to decide what is beautiful as it is no longer subjective.
ReplyDeleteGood point. Even if it could be said that everyone likes sunsets, I know I like them with clouds and my wife perfers clear skies.
Deletewhere did the suggestion of god's being the foundation come from? i'm totally ignorant of this.
DeleteI never heard it until this year, but now apologists everywhere are using it. They must have heard it from one of the big names.
DeleteI have sometimes heard theists respond to arguments that god's qualities are logically contradictory by claiming that god transcends "human-made" logic (as if logic is just something people make up). If logic somehow does not apply to god, then how can he be the foundation of logic?
ReplyDeleteOn a lighter note, when you stated that if god is responsible for beauty then he is also responsible for ugliness, I was reminded of the Monty Python song "All things dull and ugly", a parody of the more famous "All things bright and beautiful." The song can be heard on YouTube, it's good for a few laughs :-D
Thanks, I'll check it out.
DeleteMost 'sophisticated' theologians recognize that god can only do what is logically possible. So he can't create a rock too heavy to lift, and he can't commit suicide or know what it's like to learn because he's necessary and all-knowing. He is limited in certain ways.
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't completely extirpate him from all logical conundrums but it is supposed to make him immune from the common criticisms of omnipotence and omniscience. That means we have to dig deeper and find god's other weaknesses.
I know it's supposed to, but it doesn't. I understand the difference between absolutely all powerful and essentially all-powerful, but I've yet to find an apologist that does and is willing admits it.
DeleteMore and more I'm noticing that theists recognize god can't do everything. Once a friend of mine said that god can do anything. I then asked him if god could create a jalapeno so spicy that even he couldn't eat it. He was floored, and stopped believing at that very moment that god can do anything.
DeleteSince the "God" humanity has become familiar with is a figment of ancient human imagination and no one REALLY knows if any kind of Divine Creator exists or not, or what it's attributes might be,there really isn't much foundation to think logically and try to explain about an omnipotent or an omniscient deity who did all the awful things "he" is credited with in the ancient Bible. All it does is cause disagreements, crusades, inquisitions, and wars. :)
ReplyDeleteAnd we don't need any more of them for sure. :-)
DeleteIs that a screenshot from Tombstone, with Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday? I emitted a nostaligic squee when I saw it.
ReplyDeleteHell yeah it is. And an edited quote from the movie.
Deleteso did i.... the good ol' days. lol.
Delete"God is needed as a foundation for logic.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet God, as many Christians define him, is omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal--qualities that break logic in several different ways. Examples follow.
An omnipotent God can’t both make a stone so heavy that he can’t lift and then lift said stone."
Because that is Inconceivable, it's a Logical impossibility, it can't even be a possible question, that's how inconceivable it is, like asking God to make me exist and not exist at the same time, this isn't a logical question, it is an inconceivable thing to ask, thus illogical.
"An omniscient God can’t know what is it like to learn considering he has always known all, yet he must know what it is like to learn in order to know all. "
He does know what it is like to learn, as He knows everything and every human conscious, yet still contains all the knowledge, no contradiction there.
"An omnipotent God can, by definition, commit suicide; yet an eternal God, by definition, cannot die."
Death as in Nonexistence/Annihilation is another inconciable question, can YHWH become human and commit suicide? of course, but can YHWH cease to exist? this is inconceivable, why? because Existence cannot Not exist, YHWH is existence, existence isn't a property of Him, He just is the transcendent existence, like He is love.
"I've heard excuses for all these and they all suck. The closest a logical deity can get is mostly powerful (quasipotent?) and mostly knowledgeable (quasiscient?)
God is needed as a foundation for morality.
And yet God, as many Christians define him, violates his alleged good nature "
Never, also using Interpolated verses will not help argument.
"regularly in both their holy book and day-to-day life. The lives taken by Yahweh/Jehovah in the Torah/Bible include almost everyone on earth at one point."
Who were evil, therefore no innocent, infants or children were harmed. start reading The Bible before you make a judgement of whether it's true or not,
Genesis 6:5 - "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
"He is a vengeful,"
No He isn't, He Avenges(Restorative) and wants to Stop evil, The Old and New Testament repeatedly has it say that YHWH takes absolutely no joy in Annihilation of wicked.
"For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!" - Ezekiel 18:32
"Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'" - Ezekiel 33:11
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9
"who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." - 1 Timothy 2:4
Far from wanting to harm.
"jealous being who allows for cruel and unusual punishment."
ReplyDeleteDeath isn't cruel and unusual punishment for sin, the soul who sins dies, Do you even know what Eternal Fire means? Do a Bible Study before coming off with Pseudo Intellect, Jude 1:7 and Revelation 20:14 explain it,
Jude 1:7 - "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
What happened to Sodom and Gommorrah are an Example of Eternal Fire, Sodom and Gomorrah no Longer exist, they were Annihilated, The Fire had eternal consequences, Death, that's why it's called Eternal Fire.
Revelation 20:14 - "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
What does Jesus Christ(YHWH) say?
""Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.""
Punishment is in contrast to Eternal Life, sinners/evil won't get Eternal Life, they get Eternal Punishment, this Eternal Punishment lacks Eternal life, they don't get it, what is lack of life? Death
and demonstrate Lake of Fire and Eternal Fire as... Death, punishment of sin, is death.
"Outside of myth, Christians must accept that God either causes or allows asymmetrical suffering for every form of life."
He allows, doesn't cause, allowing finite amount of suffering is moral for YHWH(The Father and THe Son and The Holy Spirit) to do
:God is needed as a foundation for beauty.
And yet ugly things exist."
and yet Ugly is a lack of beauty, as evil is a lack of good, what is your point?
No one says "look that Ugly", what makes something ugly? Asymmetry? Lacking Symmetry, Bland colors? Lacking color.
If there's no Night, then what's a Sunny day?
"If God is responsible for desirable aesthetics, he is also responsible for the undesirable."
Yet undesirable aesthetics aren't undesirable to all, I don't find women with pointy noses too attractive, yet others do.
"Reality isn’t all sunsets and kittens, we also have excrement and maggots."
Of course it isn't, who argued that it is? it's gonna be, but not now.
Also Problem of Suffering is Refuted, http://savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2013/03/problem-of-suffering-solved-why-it-is.html