Monday, July 15, 2013

On the Transparency of Christian Apologetics

The following is a post to the Christian Apologetics Alliance's Google+ Community by Caleb Dickson, who is well worth a follow.

Apologetics is defined as:
  1. Systematic argumentative discourse in defense (as of a doctrine)
  2. A branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity (Merriam-Webster dictionary)
Of course there are reasons why opposition to Christianity has intensified, especially in recent decades. A flurry of new scientific observations, hypotheses, theories and the resulting philosophical implications that fly in the face of elementary Christian belief have raised more questions than ever in Christian history. These questions have forced Christians to rally support for their beliefs and provide answers for the growing number of inadequately answered questions and, as a result, growing number of atheists.

But to what end? How far are Christians willing to assert and defend themselves in the face of denial? It seems that too many of us all begin this argument with the presupposition that we are already absolutely and objectively right before a conclusion can even be met. But is this an intelligent assumption for those concerned about the social, political, scientific or overall intellectual legitimacy of their position? Or in any discussion for that matter? Are we willing to leave valid points unchecked simply to save our own arguments?

In the interest of intellectual honesty there must be a criteria purposefully defined and agreed upon for the religious themselves to admit that they have failed to win the debate. Otherwise, what's the point? It seems this would otherwise serve to encourage people to blindly oppose everything the counter-argument has to say without accountability.

With the burden of proof resting on the claimant the Christian criteria for disproof seems primarily important. Because the atheist argument isn't an assertion (a rejection of all religious assertion) criteria for disproof doesn't seem to apply there. Yet we atheists too should set our cards on the table. I have my understandings which are continually being revised and expanded based on new information. I will gladly explain them if asked.
I suggest we at least make an attempt to agree on this criteria before the discussion can resume.
  1. What fundamental claims of Christianity do you personally think must be proven in order to claim success in proving your religion true, specifically to the atheist? Things that, unaccounted for, should result in failure.
  2. By what standards, with what types of evidence and to what degree must your claims be proven?
I thought this was a very well-stated piece...that, of course, got Caleb kicked out of the community. If any on my apologetic readers have responses, please leave them in the comments and I'll make sure Caleb finds them.

26 comments:

  1. "Of course there are reasons why opposition to Christianity has intensified, especially in recent decades. A flurry of new scientific observations, hypotheses, theories and the resulting philosophical implications that fly in the face of elementary Christian belief have raised more questions than ever in Christian history."

    Like which? If I get no response I'll take this as pseudo.

    "But to what end? How far are Christians willing to assert and defend themselves in the face of denial?"

    What denial? Demonstrate.

    "With the burden of proof resting on the claimant the Christian criteria for disproof seems primarily important. Because the atheist argument isn't an assertion (a rejection of all religious assertion) criteria for disproof doesn't seem to apply there. Yet we atheists too should set our cards on the table. "

    Actually Atheism is in dictionaries known to mean belief of No God, you mean Agnosticism requires no burden, Atheism does and the burden is on to Prove that God doesn't exist, otherwise it's an assertion.

    This article was misleading and poor.



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    Replies
    1. "Yet we atheists too should set our cards on the table."

      Well, Rafael, I am an Agnostic who does not believe Grundy misleads anyone about anything in this post. It's his opinion, and quite frankly, that's all ANY opinion on the existence of "God" is whether you are a theist...an atheist...or an agnostic.

      You claim I have no burden of proof and you are correct on that matter. After being born and remaining a Christian for 35 years...then ditching it and researching religion for the next four decades...I found no absolute proof a Supreme Being exists...or does not... for absolute certain. Neither have you because absolute "proof" does not exist.

      Delete
    2. Neither have I?

      Shroud of Turin, First Uncaused Cause, DNA, and Substance Dualism, those are Irrefutable.

      "Neither have you because absolute "proof" does not exist"

      Uh oh, you just made a claim, you claimed that Absolute Proof doesn't exist, How do you know this? So the Entire Universe was observed to have no evidence/proof? if not, you cannot say that proof doesn't exist.

      Delete
    3. Also Christian for 35 years, What kind of Christian? What doctrines did you hold, you already Proved that your atheism/agnosticism is based on a pure emotion and not faith when you said, "absolute "proof" does not exist."

      What you said was a faith, thus emotion. do not try to come off intellectual and open minded when you displayed that your atheism is emotion and closed minded.

      If you started researching science, history, physics, philosophy, start being open minded, start free thinking, critical thinking, you'd be a Christian.

      Delete
    4. Rafael..."Kind of Christian?"...Catholic. "Doctrines I held?"...All that they preached. "Based on Emotion?"...just as surely as whatever you profess to believe and assume it to be the truth! Everything we do and say is based on some kind of emotion.It's the basic of what makes us tick.

      I didn't mention the word, "faith." "Intellectual"...You have no way of knowing how intellectual I am or what my I.Q. may be and I didn't claim to be an atheist. I've studied all the subjects you mention and am as open minded and free thinking as you could ever hope to be...and no, I will never be a Christian again because I no longer believe their dogmas or that the Bible is the "word of God" or the Pope is infallible.

      I can say proof doesn't exist because I've lived a long time and searched in a lot of places and have never found a shred of evidence to support that either a "God" exists or one doesn't. I imagine after thousands of years of debate, if proof either way existed, we would have heard about it by now. You need to go back to Kindergarten and learn the basics. Negativity on this subject gets you no where.It's quite obvious you are still standing at square one.

      Delete
    5. "Rafael..."Kind of Christian?"...Catholic."

      Catholicism is Secular, it's virtually unbiblical in it's reptitive prayers, idolatry, calling Priest Father, Confession, Sex only for Procreation(Unbiblically), Sex outside of marriage, being against Homosexuality, False Eucharist, creating their own rules and traditions.

      It's Phariseeism, it's Secular, what's the difference that and Atheism? they both don't believe in The True YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit)

      "just as surely as whatever you profess to believe and assume it to be the truth! "

      Actually no, I never made indicated why I am a Christian, so you have no clue what it's based on, while you proved it's due to emotion when you said there's absolutely no evidence.

      "I will never be a Christian again because I no longer believe their dogmas"

      There you go, proving it's emotion, What Dogmas? If you look for Truth like you claim, answer that question, I'll disprove the dogmas.

      " that the Bible is the "word of God""

      Who said The Bible is Infallable? The Bible is the canon, which contains Scripture, some interpolation which we weed out easily, SCRIPTURE is infalliable.

      "or the Pope is infallible."

      What's the Pope have to do with The Bible? where does The Bible say Popehood? it's a Secular doctrine, like the atheist doctrine of Homosexuality being sin, it's unfound in The Bible

      "I can say proof doesn't exist because I've lived a long time and searched in a lot of places and have never found a shred of evidence to support that either a "God" exists or one doesn't."

      "f proof either way existed, we would have heard about it by now. "


      And you haven't searched the Entire universe, so you cannot say there is no evidence, his is a faith/assumption. However there is evidence,

      First Uncaused Cause
      Bible/Jesus Christ Historical Resurrection.
      Shroud of Turin
      DNA
      Quantum Mechanics
      Substance Dualism
      Objective Morality

      I see that your atheism is based on emotion or opposition to what you called, "dogmas", when guaranteed those supposed dogmas aren't Biblical. Read Matthew 22, Law is Love YHWH with every fiber of your being and Love thy neighbor as thyself.


      "ou need to go back to Kindergarten and learn the basics."

      Why insult me? you're supposed to be the wise one here.

      So reply again in Kindness as I have done to you, Do you really want to Insult me and offend me? Why would you want to hurt anyone? Be like YHWH, who takes no pleasure in death of wicked(Ezekiel 33:11, "ay to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'" YHWH)

      "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - YHWH(The Lord Jesus Christ) Matthew 7:12

      So I ask, what dogmas?

      Delete
    6. Since you reject Christianity for doctrines not even in The Bible, basically rejecting secular doctrines you think are Christian ones, I feel bad and want to help, you'll be a Christian again in no time.

      Delete
    7. I assure you Rafael...you could no sooner turn me turn me into believing what you believe than I could turn you into into becoming a reasonable man. Those who believe in a wrathful God who would create man and a hell and devil to torment and torture them for eternity with is so far out of touch with reality...they can't see truth, for they allow faith in someone else's ancient belief to blind them. By the way, people who exhibit no emotion are defined as psychopaths.

      I don't know what created earth and mankind and I'm willing to admit it. You don't know either but have faith in what some ancient old man decided his God should be and none of it is based on scientific facts...and believe me, I've read enough horrific stuff that vengeful god instigated in your Bible that I want nothing to do with him. I'll take my chances on what I don't know for certain...whether or not there is any kind of divine being responsible for creating such a diverse humanity and so many insane religious dogmas.

      Delete
    8. How do you explain Zephaniah 3:6-10?

      “I have destroyed nations;
      their strongholds are demolished.
      I have left their streets deserted,
      with no one passing through.
      Their cities are laid waste;
      they are deserted and empty.
      7 Of Jerusalem I thought,
      ‘Surely you will fear me
      and accept correction!’
      Then her place of refuge[a] would not be destroyed,
      nor all my punishments come upon[b] her.
      But they were still eager
      to act corruptly in all they did.
      8 Therefore wait for me,”
      declares the Lord,
      “for the day I will stand up to testify.
      I have decided to assemble the nations,
      to gather the kingdoms
      and to pour out my wrath on them—
      all my fierce anger.
      The whole world will be consumed
      by the fire of my jealous anger."


      That sounds like a pretty pissed off angry jealous evil god to me, who appears to take pleasure in punishment. How is it possible to do something out of "jealous anger" and "wrath" and not take pleasure in it?

      And Ezekiel 21:31-32:

      "I will pour out my wrath on you
      and breathe out my fiery anger against you;
      I will deliver you into the hands of brutal men,
      men skilled in destruction.
      You will be fuel for the fire,
      your blood will be shed in your land,
      you will be remembered no more;
      for I the Lord have spoken.’”


      This is a god who's anger is uncontrollable. He cannot be good by definition.

      Delete
    9. @Thinker/

      Zephaniah 3:6-8 Interpolation, 3 sentences that come out of nowhere and are out of context, also contradict Majority of Text(YHWH is love, Hosea 3) etc_, with logic and literary criticism we dismiss something that goes against Majority of text.

      So that's an interpolation.

      "Ezekiel 21:31-32"


      Doesn't say anything crazy, read whole chapter, He's going to judge and eliminate evil, same Book says 3 Times that He takes no pleasure in death of wicked,

      Ezekiel 33:11 - "Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'"

      Ezekiel 18:32 - "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

      Ezekiel 18:23 - "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"

      So either with Ezekiel 21:31-32 you misread or we have another interpolation.

      Interpolations of a few sentences do not help, even an interpolation of a whole chapter or book, in order to demonstrate YHWH as "evil" you'd have to point out that Majority of The Bible supports this with chapters and books consistent of it, if not, we have an interpolation, which doesn't prove anything,


      all it does is make the Majority(Not interpolations) authentic, which mean that YHWH is moral according to Majority(when I say Majority I mean, Majority, interpolations are small)

      Refuted

      Delete
    10. "I assure you Rafael...you could no sooner turn me turn me into believing what you"

      How do you know what I believe? Stop with the assumptions, it's insulting, it's bigotry to assume my beliefs because I'm a Christian, you do not even know my doctrines.

      " believe than I could turn you into into becoming a reasonable man."

      Another insult, again why would you want to insult or offend another human being? Not that you offended, but you tried to, do you like to hurt and offend others?

      Love your enemies is what Jesus Christ Our Lord said.

      Wanting to offend another, to destruct, to harm is evil, your not making atheism look good.

      " Those who believe in a wrathful God"

      Isaiah 27:4 - "I am not angry. If only there were briers and thorns confronting me! I would march against them in battle; I would set them all on fire." - YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit)

      Again you demonstrate that you do not read The Bible, let the rebellion go.

      who would create man and a hell and devil to torment and torture them for eternity"

      Yet you do not read The Bible, #1 EVEN if Hell was eternal torment, the devil wouldn't torture anyone, if anything The Bible says satan is the one who suffers the most.

      #2, Hell is Death, read The Bible Jude 1:7 and Revelation 20:14, stop being close minded.

      " with is so far out of touch with reality...they can't see truth, for they allow faith in someone else's ancient belief to blind them. By the way, people who exhibit no emotion are defined as psychopaths."

      Exactly.

      "I don't know what created earth and mankind and I'm willing to admit it. You don't know either but have faith in what some ancient old man decided his God should be and none of it is based on scientific facts.."

      Quantum Mechanics, Snakes can talk, humans could teleport, all Scientific facts.

      ".and believe me, I've read enough horrific stuff that vengeful god instigated in your Bible"

      Like what? Hope it's not Interpolation, better be majority of Bible to prove your case, because Scholars do not agree with you when Old testament has stuff like Hosea 3, isaiah 27:4, Matthew 5, Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 22, John 14, 15 and 16.

      " that I want nothing to do with him."

      Yet what you judge Him with, that Morality... is from Him, of course you'd want something to do with Him, if not, if you're against Life, against YHWH, you would just support rape and murder and all death and harm.

      " I'll take my chances on what I don't know for certain...whether or not there is any kind of divine being responsible for creating such a diverse humanity and so many insane religious dogmas."

      What Dogma? I ask and ask and you keep failing me, you seem to be so sure yet are so close minded, Suspend your atheistic beliefs, answer, What Dogmas are in The Bible?

      If you aren't afraid of me refuting, you'd answer.

      Delete
    11. Dear Rafael..."How do you know what I believe?" I know because you keep writing it here and insisting it's scientific fact...like snakes can talk. No...they can't...not then...not now.

      I repeat, "I am not an atheist...I am an agnostic!" I simply don't know if a supreme being exists and admit it.

      Dogma is defined as "system of belief." It is what all Christian religions are based on taken from Bible scripture, originally initiated by Catholicism... and now there are thousands of Christian sects because they can't agree on what they want to believe...so how do you know what you believe is accurate...because a snake told you so?

      IF that offends you, I don't apologize...you started offending when you first wrote this post should be taken down because it offended you. That is the main problem with fundamental Christians...everyone else's views offends them.

      Delete
    12. "like snakes can talk. No...they can't...not then...not now. "

      1, How do you know they didn't talk then?

      2, How do you know they cannot talk? Don't say because it's never been seen, because I've never seen mars with my own eyes, yet it exist.

      3, They can possibly talk, Quantum Physics.

      "I simply don't know if a supreme being exists and admit it. "

      Then why did you say, "absolute "proof" does not exist."

      "Dogma is defined as "system of belief." It is what all Christian religions are based on taken from Bible scripture, originally initiated by Catholicism."

      Catholicism isn't Scripture or the original church, even if it was the Modern day church at least from 300 is so far off The Bible, so Secular that it could no longer be considered the church.

      "and now there are thousands of Christian sects because they can't agree on what they want to believe"

      Scripture is clear, for example, Protestants hold to "faith alone", when James 2 refutes it,

      or Most hold to Homosexuality and/or Lust being a sin, when that is refuted,

      http://savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2013/04/lust-is-not-sin.html

      http://savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2013/04/homosexuality-is-not-sin-part-1.html

      "so how do you know what you believe is accurate...because a snake told you so? "

      Because a snake told me so? what are you talking about? what does Genesis, or the serpent in Genesis have to do with what I believe is accurate or Doctrines? you made yourself come off so emotional and bitter that you almost turned me off from helping you, don't do that, it bothers me.

      "IF that offends you, I don't apologize"

      So you don't care if another person is hurt or offended? That's why you need to read Matthew 22:36-40, and see how YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit) is good, Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself and Love your enemies(Matthew 5)



      "you started offending when you first wrote this post should be taken down because it offended you."

      I didn't say the post offended me, I said the post is misleading and poor, not good for science or critical thinking.

      Also how does that offend you? why would it? If I was talking bullshit why reply or get offended?

      "That is the main problem with fundamental Christians...everyone else's views offends them."

      I'm not a fundamentalist.

      Delete
    13. So what are you Rafael, if you are not a fundamentalist? You debunk history that proves all Christians stem from Catholicism which initiated Christianity. You swear by the Jews ancient fables no matter how impossible they are. You think you know all the "reasons" there are to know about why God supposedly acted so evil in history? Exactly what "sect" do you belong to?

      Delete
  2. All atheism has come up with is Faith, I'm not up for that, Christianity has provided Scientific Facts which leave my critical thinking to an end. all my free/critical thinking, OCD, doubts, open mindedness, and scientific facts such as Quantum Mechanics lead to Christianity.

    Atheism has not fulfilled it's burden of proof, and atheism is still a faith based on emotion, which We cannot take, as it is not Scientific, Logical, Philosophical, Historical or Moral, in order for us free thinkers to be convinced we must have observable proof and demonstrate of No God/YHWH not existing, problem is there isn't and all the facts that He does exist, such as

    The Bible which is valid in Court
    Shroud of Turin The Object with the most Scientific evidence in Theism vs Atheism
    Jesus Christ Resurrection being a Historical Fact
    First Uncaused Cause
    Objective Morality needing God
    Fine Tuning
    Quantum Physics
    Substance Dualism
    Macro-evolution being disproven
    DNA/Intelligent Design.

    I ask, Demonstrate what opposes Christianity, as you claimed, otherwise this post is misleading and not good for people who freely and critically think and should be taken down.

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    Replies
    1. The Bible which is valid in Court - the Qur'an is also allowed in court.
      Shroud of Turin The Object with the most Scientific evidence in Theism vs Atheism - it is a hoax and the Catholic church doesn't even accept it as real
      Jesus Christ Resurrection being a Historical Fact - let me guess, your proof is the bible? You have no evidence for the Resurrection.
      First Uncaused Cause - Not needed given the B-theory on time and quantum mechanics.
      Objective Morality needing God - so slavery is objectively moral as in Leviticus 25:44-46?
      Fine Tuning - we are fine tuned for the universe, the universe is not fine tuned for us.
      Quantum Physics - how does that help god? Quantum physics violates our common sense, that's why it shows that a prime mover is not necessary.
      Substance Dualism - you have no evidence that the soul exists.
      Macro-evolution being disproven - show me the proof that evolution has been disproven. It better not be the bible.
      DNA/Intelligent Design - We know RNA can form naturally, and RNA is the precursor to DNA. There's no reason to invoke intelligent design anywhere because you cannot prove intelligent design. And who designed cancer and mutations? God? Some asshole.

      Delete
    2. "the Qur'an is also allowed in court."

      Has no testable witnesses, for example, The Bible is a collection of about 40 subjective testimonies which go together, have Physical proof in Shroud, and Historical facts supporting it, where no Naturalistic Theory(Conspiracy, Myth, Swoon, Hallucination, Wrong Tomb theories have been debunked) are possible and only The Resurrection works.

      the quran cannot do this.

      " it is a hoax and the Catholic church doesn't even accept it as real"

      1, Since when did you care what the catholic church accepts or not? doesn't matter whether they do or not, they are secular and teach things way off The Bible.

      2, It's not a hoax, there is no scientific proof for forgery.

      "let me guess, your proof is the bible? You have no evidence for the Resurrection."

      No, my proof is history, http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm

      "Not needed given the B-theory on time and quantum mechanics."

      Time is present, Proof? Irrefutable, if Past and Future exist we would experience them consciously, otherwise the 'Us' in the past and future isn't really 'Us', we cannot, we only experience now, the future doesn't exist yet and the past doesn't exist anymore, if they did, they would be happening.

      "so slavery is objectively moral as in Leviticus 25:44-46?"

      1, Nope, never said to be moral, http://ryanreeder.blogspot.com/2009/10/use-of-leviticus-2544-46-in-slavery.html

      2, Actually said to be immoral 1 Corinthians 7:21 - "Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so."

      "we are fine tuned for the universe, the universe is not fine tuned for us."

      That isn't the argument, it isn't about merely humans, but all Life.

      "how does that help god? Quantum physics violates our common sense, that's why it shows that a prime mover is not necessary"

      How does it do this? it doesn't at all refute

      a prime mover.

      " you have no evidence that the soul exists."

      Free Will, Atoms do something predestined or accidental, we have Free Will, this refutes a Material Consciousness.

      Immaterial facts such as Math, Words, Signs and Numbers.

      and of course, Quantum Physics, everything is made up of small atoms/quantua, if we are our brain, how can we sense our hand? it as separate as the brain is to the wall, they are not one, yet we can sense the hand, why can't I sense the wall? they are Scientifically as distinct.

      There must be an immaterial connection, because there is no physical connection.

      "show me the proof that evolution has been disproven. It better not be the bible."

      DNA.

      " We know RNA can form naturally, and RNA is the precursor to DNA. "

      How can RNA form naturally? and how do you know RNA is a percursor to DNA>

      "There's no reason to invoke intelligent design anywhere because you cannot prove intelligent design. "

      Circular reasoning, "Intelligent design isn't true because Intelligent Design isn't true"

      "And who designed cancer and mutations? God?"

      Yes, as Death has to exist where sin exist, where death exist, mutations and cancer exist, only way to elimination a disfunction is to eliminate the Nonfunction, death, this would be Immoral at this time, letting us live forever in an evil world is not moral, would be moral to have them die from this world and resurrect them at the end.


      Delete
  3. No one answered my question, What opposes Christianity? in order for it to be opposed there needs to be facts against this.

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    Replies
    1. In the bible it says pray and you will receive. Yet scientific (statistical) studies have shown this to be false. So guess that is proof that the bible is wrong.

      That a omniscient god exists means he/she/it knows everything. So then it is impossible for free will to exist. Then this god can not be the god of Christianity (as God gives us free will), yet Christians define their god as someone/something that knows everything.

      Maybe this is what you were looking for.

      Delete
    2. You just proved The Bible true, Yes The Bible does say Ask and you shall receieve(According to YHWH's Will, getting all prayers answered and performing miracles were to Apostles only), however when you do Scientific Studies, this is what's called, Testing The Lord your God, which won't get your prayer answered.


      "That a omniscient god exists means he/she/it knows everything."

      Indeed.


      "So then it is impossible for free will to exist. "

      This assumes that what someone chooses is knowable, it is not, Why? because The Future doesn't exist, How can you know The Future when it doesn't exist yet?

      This is time,

      Past doesn't exist anymore, Present exist, Future doesn't exist but will exist, the future isn't something there, if it was, we'd experience it and be Aware/Conscious with our Free Will of it. The Future doesn't exist yet, so asking to know the future/free will(what one chooses) is as logically inconcieveable as asking YHWH to cause someone to exist and not exist at the same time.

      So argument refuted.


      Delete
    3. The bible itself does a pretty good job at contradicting itself.

      Genesis 1:27 (The first man and woman were created simultaneously.)
      So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

      Genesis 2:18-22 (The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.)
      And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

      and...

      Genesis 1:25-27 (Humans were created after the other animals.)
      And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

      oh, and...
      Genesis 2:18-19 (Humans were created before the other animals.)
      And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

      So Rafael, how can you possibly expect me to believe that the bible is the universal truth? The bible is folly and wrong. Once it housed entire libraries, but Constantine cooked up a new one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_Bibles_of_Constantine

      In the bible Pontius Pilatus is depicted as a nice and friendly man who desperately tried to save Jesus from the nasty jews who wanted to kill him. Clearly, the romans were the good guys.
      But according to the Roman scriptures, Pontius was removed from Judea because he was too brutal - and from coming back them, that was a lot.
      Still, when you're writing a bible, you make pretty damn sure that you make your protectors look good.

      So Rafael, either you are doing a remarkable job of trollin us, or you are completely and utterly blind to the text you so foolishly adhere.

      You wanted an answer to your question. Well, Christianity opposes itself... and that's just for starters. How else would you explain the contradictions and flaws?

      Delete
    4. Contradictions do not disprove The Bible/Scripture, they Authenticate it, How?

      Logically whatever contradicts a Majority(and I mean a Majority) of Text is not authors intent nor original purpose or writing, made up or not, meaning since Most has it that God is love and LESS than 2 Passages worth of interpolated, evil text, the interpolated text are not worth it out of the 1000 chapters/30,000 verses.

      Thus the Majority(whether good or evil,) is Authentic and Authors intent whether made up or not, The Good passages are basically The Bible and the rest were interplations.


      "Genesis 1:27 (The first man and woman were created simultaneously.)
      So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

      Genesis 2:18-22 (The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.)
      And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."

      There's your fundemental error, you say for Genesis 1:27 that, "The first man and woman were created simultaneously."

      The text doesn't say that, that's reading into it, all it says is that they were created, the other passage Genesis 2 explains it in detail.


      (Humans were created before the other animals.) or (Humans were created after the other animals.)
      http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=643

      "
      So Rafael, how can you possibly expect me to believe that the bible is the universal truth? The bible is folly and wrong. "

      No it's not, a Minority of Interpolations do not disprove the rest of the text, all they do if they contradict The Majority, and they do, is AUTHENTICATE the majority, so The Bible is true.

      "How else would you explain the contradictions and flaws?"

      By saying the truth, they are flaws and contradictions that were interpolated, simple and they authenticate The Bible.

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    5. So if we test prayer it does not work. So god is outside the realm of testing. God is outside the universe and time. So God is unable to affect the universe we live in, because if he/she/it was then he/she/it would be testable. Hence god is redundant.

      Regarding free will. God is not omnipotent/omniscient, as god does not know everything. Guess this god is getting more useless the more I type as it/he/she has no idea what is coming next.

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  4. It amazes me that he got kicked out for this. All he was doing was trying to set some rules, I guess theists just hate been wrong and by kicking him out they avoid the chance of ever been wrong.

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  5. Those who would kick someone out for writing this... they give real Christians a bad name. I am a Christian. I cannot prove there is a God any more than you can prove there is not one. After several years as a Christian, followed by several years studying different religions and science, and trying to find an answer, I have gone back to Christianity. However, this does not (in my opinion) discredit anything that has been done in the name of science. I am not one who will toss out research simply because it doesn't conform to what Christianity teaches. And I disagree with anyone who will toss someone out just because that person doesn't conform to everything Christianity teaches. To do so undermines Christianity all together.

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